Going Steady with Herman Daly: 'The seeds Herman planted'

We’re joining podcasts around the world in tandem with the 80th United Nations General Assembly, to ask a vital question: where do we find hope in challenging times? We explore how cities are implementing Herman Daly’s revolutionary economic theories.

Featured in this episode:

Karen Daly Junker, Herman and Marcia’s youngest daughter

Terri Daly Stewart, Herman and Marcia’s eldest daughter

Denis Daly Heyck, Herman’s sister

David Batker, Ecological economist

Katherine Trebeck, Political economist

Leonora Grcheva, Cities & Regions Lead at DEAL

Kate Raworth, Co-founder of DEAL

Katy Shields, Regenerative Economist

Cindy Acab, Waste to Resources Network Senior Manager at C40

Cllr. Susan Aitken, Leader of Glasgow City Council

Takehiko Nagumo, Director of Smart Cities Institute Japan

Joshua Farley, Ecological Economist

Gaya Herrington, Ecological economist

Angelos Varvarousis, Research Fellow at UAB

Tim Jackson, Ecological economist

Clóvis Cavalcanti, Ecological economist

John Redwood, Former employee of the World Bank

Jon Sward, Environment Project Manager at the Bretton Woods Project

Peter May, Ecological economist

Brian Czech, Executive Director of CASSE

Thank you to the Daly family for their generous support in sharing Herman’s story.

Thank you also to our series consultants and fact checkers, Peter Harnik, Rob Dietz, and Peter Victor, who also graciously supplied the interview tape with Herman Daly, recorded in 2022.

If you want to learn more about the Journal of City Climate Policy and Economy, please visit our website: https://jccpe.utpjournals.press/

Cities 1.5 is produced by the University of Toronto Press and Cities 1.5 is supported by C40 Cities and the C40 Centre for City Climate Policy and Economy. You can sign up to the Centre newsletter here. https://thecentre.substack.com/

Cities 1.5 is hosted by David Miller, Managing Director of the C40 Centre and author of the book Solved. It's written and produced by Peggy Whitfield and Jess Schmidt: https://jessdoespodcasting.com/

Our executive producer is Chiara Morfeo.

Edited by Morgane Chambrin: https://www.morganechambrin.com/

Cities 1.5 music is by Lorna Gilfedder: https://origamipodcastservices.com/

Transcript

[Going Steady with Herman Daly theme music]

Herman Daly 00:04

I had polio, so I was part of the epidemic of that period. I regained more or less the use of most of my body, my legs and my arm, but not my left arm. That I could barely just twitch one finger a little bit. But that was the big hope, you know? “Well, if you keep twitching that finger…” My constant companion was the radio. I would listen to the radio all the time. I still listen to too much radio. But I like radio because you’re totally dependent on language for the communication. There’s no visual supplement to it. You have to supply the visual image through words, and I guess that’s something that I like about radio. [music continues then ends]

David 00:58

[fast rhythmic music] It seems fateful that podcasting, a child of radio, is the method that our team at the C40 Center for City Climate Policy and Economy and the University of Toronto Press has chosen to explore Herman’s life. This is how we’re honoring the ideas, hopes and dreams that he built for us, and bringing them to new audiences at a crucial time for the world. As we journey through the final episode of this miniseries, we’re also joining podcasts around the world. In a special moment of reflection, as world leaders prepare to gather in New York for the 80th United Nations General Assembly, we are asking where we can find hope in our world today. As always, we look to Herman for guidance. He warned us many years ago that growth is not always progress. Beyond a point it becomes uneconomic growth, where the damage to people, places, and planet outweighs the benefits of profit. We see it all around us today; rising inequality, exhausted workers, poisoned rivers, burning forests. An economy that grows yet fails to make life better. [music ends]

[rousing music] It’s easy to despair in these difficult times, but in the face of global inaction and turmoil C40 mayors and cities offer real hope, and Herman’s ideas show us that there are alternatives. In this episode, we will show our urban centers are beginning to trial his vision. From new measures of wellbeing beyond GDP to grassroots projects changing our economies from the ground up, to reframing how to measure what a successful place to live looks like, cities are stepping into the vacuum left by national governments. They’re shaping new pathways to a healthy and more climate-safe future and showing that Daly’s ideas are not just theory but practice. But before we start our tour of what a hopeful city-led future could look like, let’s go back to Herman. [music ends]

[slow rhythmic music] Herman retired from the University of Maryland in 2010. He continued to write, publish, and speak on ecological economics and enjoy food, music and the love of his family. The latter years of his career really saw Herman’s reputation grow. He received the recognition and praise that his work deserved, including the Blue Planet Prize in 2014, sometimes referred to as the Nobel Prize for the environment. Here’s Herman’s former student and colleague, ecological economist David Batker. [music continues then ends]

David Batker 04:04

Herman had many lessons for us all in his life. He was a wonderful father, a wonderful spouse. He did not abandon his family for his cause. He also paid so much attention to so many students, like me, who others might say, “Oh, well that’s not an important person. You know, I’m going to focus on these important politicians,” [chuckles] or whoever. And in doing so, he changed careers and built the world of ecological economics. And so, his kindness was really wonderful. On the other hand, he did not pander to anyone. He worked very hard. When you hear him talk you realize he was a victim of polio and he had the sturdiness of someone who had polio.

David 04:51

[slow rhythmic music] Herman also continued to have a close relationship with his children Terri and Karen. The strong and loving foundations he and Marcia built their family on, along with the values they shared, are evident in their daughters’ lives today. You’ll remember from last episode that Karen moved to Washington D.C. with her parents when Herman got a job at the World Bank. She originally planned to pursue law there, but found her head turned by another calling. [music continues then ends]

Karen Daly Junker 05:26

I found myself going to many art museums in the Washington area and kind of had an epiphany that I really loved art history. I had taken art history courses and remembered how much I loved them and for some reason I had never put it together that maybe I could pursue a career related to art. I worked for a prominent regional art gallery and then got my foot in the door at the Virginia Museum of Fine Arts. VMFA is what we call it for short.

David 05:56

[slow rhythmic music] Karen still works there today and has taken her parents’ pursuit of justice and equality into her workplace. As a provenance specialist she researches the history of art and cultural objects to create biographies for them and identify any injustices in their story, whether that’s Nazi-looted art or items expropriate by colonial powers. Terri was likewise impacted by her parents’ values, particularly Marcia’s music teacher roots and Herman’s lifelong battle with polio. She went to school for both music and occupational therapy. [music continues then ends]

Terri Daly Stewart 06:41

Seeing a person who had overcome a medical condition in his life, had overcome an amputation. I mean, I’ve never had—knew him with two arms and then kind of discovering that and realizing, “Well, what happened dad?” And I think where I really got to know more about that was when I actually studied it in occupational therapy and studied neurology and diseases and things and was able to kind of go, “Oh, wow! He really suffered tremendously.” It made him, really, a stronger person. It made him a very focused person to do something important in his life, and I think, yes, that’s probably definitely influenced my career. You know, really meeting people where they are. What is it that they need? What is it they want? And I think that makes you a good therapist. I’ve really enjoyed it for 37 years I’ve been in OT.

David 07:28

Like many victims of childhood polio, Herman was affected by the disease throughout his life. The illness eventually forced him to reduce his teaching hours at the University of Maryland.

Terri Daly Stewart 07:41

I think the part that was hard is when he started having post-polio symptoms again later in life. It really brought up a lot of emotions again. A lot of anxieties and fear around that, “Like I thought I kind of—I beat that,” you know? So, it was definitely humbling for him. I mean, he has always been a humble person, but I think that, for him, was even more, “Wow! I really need to protect myself.” I think he got much better at saying no to things.

David 08:08

Herman and Marcia moved into a retirement home in Richmond, Virginia, in 2015 as post-polio syndrome was taking its toll.

Herman Daly 08:18

I kept on swimming until just recently. Matter of fact, I thought I would continue swimming here because they have a little pool. I did go there once to try it out, but to tell the truth, just the difficulty of getting dressed and undressed and so forth pretty well wears me out. While we were in Maryland, I kept on swimming. That was into my seventies. So I think swimming is over. I’m not going to try that anymore.

David 08:45

[slow rhythmic music] Herman continued to be a prolific writer later in life. Despite his retirement and his health problems, he was still buzzing with ideas. He also stayed in touch with his global community of thinkers, economists, activists, ecologists, and former students. Herman was also strongly engaged with politics. He would often get very angry when he saw the world taking the wrong turn. [music ends]

Karen Daly Junker 09:16

Oh! You could hardly watch the news with him. You know, we’d watch PBS news in the United States, some expert would come on and say something and he’d yell out, you know, “That’s bullshit!” You know? And, I mean, he just was funny. “Can we not yell at the news?”

David 09:31

[fast rhythmic music] Throughout his life, Herman saw leader after leader around the globe double down on rampant growth. Since he knew this would lead to societal and ecological destruction, rage could easily turn to despondency. [music continues then ends]

Herman Daly 09:50

I think democracy is really in sort of a crisis right now. I think the level of policy is constrained by the level of understanding of the average citizen. Understanding of the average voter is low. It’s gotten lower because life has gotten more complicated. The issues have gotten more complicated and so the consequences of its—of decisions are greater, but the understanding and the morality has not increased. I can understand why so many people—the kind of people I waited on the hardware store for many years, why these people were pissed off. And I think the class difference has just grown very wide in this country. You’ve got a much more entrenched upper class and a much more neglected lower class. There’s been a [fissioning 10:50] a total splitting apart.

David 10:53

But Herman’s moral grit and support network always helped him to stay grounded.

Terri Daly Stewart 10:59

But I think he realized, “My health and spending time with my family and my friends is where I need to focus,” along with, of course, all the things he kept doing. But he just found other ways to do it like with writing or doing these wonderful things like podcasts or interviews, things like that.

David 11:17

And he never lost the belief that humanity could create a better future.

Herman Daly 11:22

My hope is that, you know, Trump and all of this is going to sort of hit the bottom and we’re going to bounce up from that.

David 11:31

The love and care that Herman had always expressed for people and planet continued to play a role in his twilight years as his and Marcia’s health declined.

Karen Daly Junker 11:41

You could see him being intentionally patient with her, especially as they were in their eighties together things really started to change, I think, for them both physically and mentally. He would like to say, “We’re really dependent on each other,” and I just thought he was very sweet with her in that way and was protective of her. And just to see that in your parents at an older age was really gratifying.

Terri Daly Stewart 12:04

He started, definitely, trying to understand some of things that she was going through, and which I thought was really sweet, so. He looked to us a lot for support, I think.

Karen Daly Junker 12:14

He did, and that meant a lot. And staff at their retirement community made a point to say, “Your father is so wonderful with your mother.” They said they don’t always see that. [chuckles] It was something that I was so proud of him for. I mean, she was the love of his life. Just, yeah, pretty incredible.

David 12:33

[rousing music] In his farewell lecture at the World Bank, Herman explicitly warned against the dangers of wrapping globalization and neoliberalism into our economic system. Sadly, Herman’s predictions have come true. The failures of mainstream economics have opened the door to resentment, political backlash, and a rising tide of authoritarianism. Not to mention the planetary emergency we now find ourselves in which threatens the health of our planet and the survival of all of us. So what can be done? Herman’s work points us towards another path, one rooted in wellbeing, fairness and ecological balance. [music ends]

Herman Daly 13:22

It comes up frequently. Oh, well, nothing can be done ever unless we abolish capitalism. Well, like I said, we need to change it. We need to make it more social. I would really like to see more decentralization, more local control; the municipality ahead of the federal government.

David 13:43

[fast rhythmic music] Herman’s ideas give us the answers we need for the world right now. At a time of climate breakdown, rising authoritarianism, demographic change, and technological upheaval Herman’s idea of a steady-state economy offers a way forward. Survival depends on redefining progress. Not more, but enough. Not for private gain, but for the common good. And in our cities, the seeds of a more hopeful future are already being planted. Here’s political economist and writer Katherine Trebeck. [music ends]

Katherine Trebeck 14:28

It’s things like rolling out free or affordable and clean and accessible public transport systems, rethinking how energy is generated, but also thinking about, “What’s the economic ecosystem in that city? What sort of businesses do we want to be operating in a particular locality? Who’s employed by them? Who owns them?” And this is this agenda of community wealth building. You get the local—economic flows staying locally rather than being extracted off to remote big businesses somewhere else who care very little about the locality.

David 14:59

[melodic music] Over the course of our journey with Herman, we’ve heard a lot about what an economy and the world which lives within planetary boundaries would look like on paper. But what do these communities, economies and integrated planetary systems actually look like in practice when principles of degrowth, circular, doughnut, wellbeing or regenerative economics are applied? What happens and how does the shared basis for all these branches, Herman’s Tree Trunk of ecological economics, impact the outcome? [music ends]

Leonora Grcheva 15:44

One of the beauties of doughnut economics is that it’s opened up the world of what economics is and welcomed non-economists like myself to work collectively on expanding this understanding and definitions.

David 15:55

That’s Leonora Grcheva.

Leonora Grcheva 15:58

I’m the Cities and Regions Lead at the Doughnut Economics Action Lab.

David 16:02

The Doughnut Economics Action Lab, or DEAL, is the organization created by Kate Raworth, whom we’ve been hearing from over the course of this series. But what is the doughnut? Here’s Kate.

Kate Raworth 16:16

Somebody showed me this diagram of the nine planetary boundaries and I had this visceral reaction through my body. Because what I was seeing in this diagram, they’d drawn a circle and they labeled it with these nine life-supporting systems like climate change, ocean acidification, ozone layer depletion, excessive fertilizer use, biodiversity loss and they’d said, “These are the nine life supporting systems that keep life on earth in this stable state in this only known living planet in the universe.” And we are not just touching up against the edge of the circle as Herman had drawn it. Maybe that was the case way back many years ago when he drew it. We are way overshooting that circle. Our economies are outside of these boundaries. It made me think, “I work for a social justice organization, how can we bring in the social story?” And that’s why I drew a circle within the circle and it turned into a doughnut. We’ve got outer limits of ecological pressure, we’ve got inner limits of human rights, we need to thrive in the space between. So, encountering Herman’s diagrams directly led to me to drawing the doughnut and that changed everything I’ve done since.

David 17:22

[rousing music] Kate went on to write a bestselling book, Doughnut Economics. She co-founded DEAL to work with change makers around the world to create regenerative, distributive economies that meet the needs of all people within the means of the living planet. Back to Leonora. [music continues then ends]

Leonora Grcheva 17:44

For cities that work with doughnut economics, this has first and foremost, I would say, provided a new narrative; a new way of understanding where we are, where we need to move forward. It’s helped them articulate that GDP is a poor indicator of progress, developing new measurements and monitors of progress, decision making tools, you know, budgets, et cetera. So, all of these different processes that help us move towards the common direction of a safe and just place of the doughnut.

David 18:18

Over 40 cities and regions around the world have publicly started working with DEAL’s concepts and tools, including Mexico City, Amsterdam and Nanaimo to name a few. But why are cities such perfect places to try out these new ideas?

Leonora Grcheva 18:36

Cities, or rather local administrations of all scales not just cities strictly, are where more experimentation happens. Are where city leaders and city staff are braver to bring new concepts. Where things play out on the ground at a bit of a faster pace than on a government level. So we’ve been quite keen to really be a living lab of experimentation with practitioners that can really put these ideas into practice. Cities matter because that’s where there’s interest and that’s where there is potential and capacity to experiment with new economic ideas.

David 19:15

Vienna, Austria, is a prime example of a city that’s adopted doughnut economics as its guiding principle. Vienna is also the home of Katy Shields, co-creator of the Tipping Point podcast and lead at the Regenerative Economy Lab.

Katy Shields 19:34

My first interaction with the concept of steady state was Doughnut Economics.

David 19:40

Katy is not just well-versed in the theories of regenerative, doughnut and steady-state economics, she’s helping put these ideas into practice in Vienna.

Katy Shields 19:52

So, I founded, with a group of other women, Doughnut Vienna and we are now working on building a doughnut for the city. So, we’re trying to bring this model—this concept, ‘break it down to the city level’ and the idea is how can we make Vienna a city that is able to really meet the needs of the population here, but also helping achieve global goals in terms of ecological goals, but also social goals? Also with the Regenerative Economy Lab, which is a new initiative, we are doing workshops to help bring these concepts to different people. So what we’re trying to do in these labs is, really, sort of break it down and try to help people make that next move towards action.

David 20:33

[rousing music] Herman’s steady-state economy is the grandfather of both doughnut and regenerative economics, making these schools of thought cousins to one another. Doughnut economics calls for economies to be regenerative by design so that they meet people’s needs without depleting ecosystems. Regenerative economics provides practical methods and principles to help communities live within the doughnut. [music continues then ends]

Katy Shields 21:04

In Vienna, just like in many other cities, there’s a cost-of-living crisis. Everything seems to be getting more expensive and some of these models around housing or energy, you know, supporting repair cafes, maker spaces, all these different things can really help to also build more resiliency to these sorts of trends.

David 21:21

[slow rhythmic music] Vienna is a practical example of the theories that Herman Daly crafted and which have since been adopted by thinkers and doers like Kate, Leonora and Katy. But the universality of these concepts is part of what makes them so brilliant, and they truly are being put in place around the globe. Let’s turn now to someone hailing from one of my favorite cities, my city Toronto. [music ends]

Cindy Acab 21:50

My name is Cindy Acab. I’m from Toronto, Canada, and I manage the Waste to Resources Network here at C40, which is a network of ambitious cities that are actively making their communities more circular, sustainable, and ultimately zero waste.

David 22:05

[fast rhythmic music] While I might be biased, I think the work that the cities and the C40 network are doing around circular economies is incredibly hopeful. But what exactly is a circular economy? [music continues then ends]

Cindy Acab 22:21

I think the best way to understand the circular economy is to view it in contrast to our current economic model. We have what’s known as a take-make-waste linear economy where we take materials and raw resources and make products from them and eventually throw them away as waste, so the process is a linear one. But in a circular economy we aim to stop waste from being produced in the first place and products and materials are kept in circulation over and over again through processes like reuse, repair, refurbishment, remanufacturing, recycling, upcycling and composting. So, what’s key about the circular economy, though, is that it tackles climate change and other global challenges like biodiversity loss, methane generation, waste resulting from over consumption and pollution, from resource extraction by decoupling the economic activity, from the consumption of the planet’s finite resources. So, a circular economy fundamentally changes the way we think about what we consume, how it’s produced, and what happens to it at its end of life.

David 23:27

[rousing music] The core theory of a circular economy directly aligns with the thermodynamic principles that Herman learned from Nicholas Georgescu-Roegen; energy degrades the more you use it so we need to be thoughtful about the way that the energy is used and prioritize making the most of that energy. The answer is not continuously bringing increasing amounts of energy into the system, as that continuously generates increasing amounts of waste. But what does this idea look like in practice around the world? [music ends]

Cindy Acab 24:08

ReLondon leads much of the circular economy work in the city of London, and they’ve been pioneering work on circular neighborhoods in collaboration with the boroughs that make up the City of London. They piloted Heston in the Loop, which is a demonstrator project that tested out what a circular economy neighborhood could look like and how it could work. So, they partnered with local businesses and organizations so that their everyday activities of residents like buying a cup of coffee or getting a haircut could take place within a circular business model, so residents had a choice to waste less and reuse and repair more through circular opportunities that were provided to them at the neighborhood level. And what’s really interesting about the work ReLondon is doing is not only piloting it within certain neighborhoods, but they’re looking to take those learnings and make them replicable across London’s other boroughs as well.

David 25:05

Even though the Global North is the cause of many of our most severe climate issues, cities in the Global South are also adopting circular economy principles.

Cindy Acab 25:16

Quezon City has a number of refill hubs known as Kuha sa Tingi, and Tingi means buying in small portions, and it’s based on the more traditional practice of buying in smaller amounts that used to exist throughout Filipino culture. So, these refill hubs are located in local corner stores and they dispense personal items like shampoo, body wash, detergent in refillable containers rather than in individual sachets. Sachets are a pretty significant source of plastic pollution for many Asian cities. They can clog waterways and drains, but they’re popular because of their low cost and convenience. So, this refill business model is one that can be easily replicated and it helps reintegrate refill as a more sustainable alternative to individual packaging.

David 26:03

Like Vienna, all these cities are leaning into designs that inherently respect planetary boundaries and the benefits are not just environmental.

Cindy Acab 26:15

The more circularity can be embedded into the social and economic fabric of a city, the more choices we have as residents to engage in more circular business models and community-centered services, and then the greater shift our cities can make to a local sustainable and circular-based economy.

David 26:36

And these ideas are spreading throughout the C40 network and cities around the world.

Cindy Acab 26:42

Right now at C40 we have a reuse and repair working group that consists of 22 cities across six regions and 13 different time zones, where we bring together cities to hear from each other and work collaboratively on these types of ideas.

David 26:57

[jazz music] But how do you propagate these economic principles from the grassroots of the community to the top of city government? Who can show us what that can look like?

Councillor Susan Aitken 27:11

Councillor Susan Aitken, I’m the leader of the city of Glasgow in Scotland.

David 27:16

At Scotland’s equivalent to a mayor. Few cities embody the contradictions of economic growth as clearly as Glasgow. Once the powerhouse of the British empire built on ship, building steel and heavy industry, the city became a symbol of industrial might. But when globalization and de-industrialization hit, growth no longer meant prosperity for its people. Jobs vanished, poverty deepened and the life expectancy in parts of Glasgow fell to some of the lowest in Europe. [music continues then ends]

Councillor Susan Aitken 27:51

When I first became city leader, we had not reduced the number of economically inactive households which meant that we weren’t improving the health of those households in order to enable them to participate in the economy. We hadn’t reduced that percentage of people with no skills or qualifications, so who was this growth working for? Who was it benefiting? If it was in any way addressing these deeply embedded inequalities, then what purpose did it have and what was our point in pursuing it and chasing it as a city? So that, really, has turned our thinking on its head.

David 28:29

[slow rhythmic music] Glasgow’s story is a reminder that growth measured only in GDP can mask deep social and environmental costs, but it is also a story of resilience, creativity and reinvention. Councillor Aitken was at the helm when Glasgow hosted the COP in 2021 and has been using that legacy to create a city that works for everyone. [music ends]

Councillor Susan Aitken 28:59

In Glasgow, we’ve invested 4 million pounds of our own budget to grow capacity within our own organization and to deliver renewable source heat networks right across the city for all of our housing stock, to deliver the Glasgow Metro and expand our decarbonized transport network. But it’s very clear that the acceleration and delivery of those kinds of crucial interventions, which are the ones that we need to be doing, not just in the next decade, in the next five years. Now, really, it’s cities that are doing that. It’s cities that are leading that.

David 29:35

[fast rhythmic music] Today, Glasgow is remaking itself not through endless expansion, but by reimagining prosperity in more human and ecological terms; investing in public health, community wealth building and climate action. [music ends]

Councillor Susan Aitken 29:54

Air quality and the levels of air pollution, access to high-quality green space, those are the kinds of measures that we’re building into the way in which we judge the success of our economic development activity as a city. We’re already seeing progress by just changing our thinking about how you measure economic outcomes and how you measure economic success.

David 30:18

[slow rhythmic music] New methods for measuring progress and new metrics for success are ideas straight from Herman Daly’s playbook. We heard about the Index of Sustainable Economic Welfare which Herman developed with John Cobb, Jr. in 1989. Their work helped inspire the creation of the Genuine Progress Indicator, or GPI, which was created to replace or at least supplement GDP in the United States of America. Several states have successfully adopted GPI models in various capacities including Vermont, Maryland, Utah, and Hawaii. But it’s not just US states who are implementing new yardsticks to better measure how well their societies are doing from a more holistic standpoint, cities are doing this too. Here’s Takehiko Nagumo, director of the Smart City Institute Japan. I spoke to him last season on Cities 1.5. [music continues then ends]

Takehiko Nagumo 31:24

We have to think about what makes us happy, right? So we positioned wellbeing of citizens as a goal and technology as a means to the end. It’s a wake up from technology fantasy, so to speak, and come back to who we are. We are a human beings living on earth, so that’s why we started to pay attention to wellbeing of humans, and then we expanded the view to wellbeing of communities then to the planet Earth.

David 31:55

But what does this indicator look like in practice on the ground in cities? Well, Tak and his team are hoping to create a 100 smart cities by March, 2026, so that will be a 100 more examples to look to.

Takehiko Nagumo 32:13

The architecture of the indicator, it’s a little complicated in a way that it has multiple layers within the framework. What’s sitting on top, the most important part, is the general wellbeing subjective questions, actually. There are questions about, “How happy are you?” From a zero to 10 scale, right? “What do you think about happiness of people around you?” Secondly, we have to go down to the second layer, which is composed of 24 categories of wellbeing factors. That, of course, includes the economic side, but also social, community, environmental and et cetera, et cetera. Whether or not you feel like you have a place in the community, you’re belonging to the community? Does the community have enough tolerance to different value sets, people from different parts of the world? Whether or not you have enough blessings of nature where you live in? Whether or not the disaster prevention is enough in the area you live in? And by measuring same way the survey for those 24 categories we know which part of the areas we have strengths, which part of the areas we have weakness.

David 33:25

Indicators like these reflect more fully the values that Herman advocated for; finding more accurate and meaningful ways to measure our progress is a vital step in shifting to an economy that works for all as well as for the planet.

Takehiko Nagumo 33:44

Economy isn’t the only answer. People are more concerned about, you know, human-to-human relationships within the community, whether or not you have someone to ask for the help when help is needed, whether or not we have a civic pride in the community, whether or not we have a good connectivity to the nature. So, we are now open to different quality of life rather than just the economic part of life.

David 34:07

[slow rhythmic music] It’s not just cities now, the governments of New Zealand, Iceland, Finland, Scotland and Wales have also incorporated wellbeing economic principles into their governance systems, which has in turn spawned local government initiatives in cities around the world. You can find out more about this by reading the article ‘Policy Design for a Wellbeing Economy: Lessons from Four City Pilots’ in Volume two of the Journal of City Climate Policy and Economy. Cities 1.5 also has two episodes which cover these developments and you can find them linked in the show notes. [music ends]

[jazz music] Cities and countries alike have provided proof that the frameworks, models and policies born from Herman’s work really can make a difference. In turn, this can make for a brighter, more hopeful future, but a major hurdle still to be overcome is the old guard. The mainstream economic system built by neoliberalism and fueled by inequality is accustomed to writing cheques to be cashed by those who share none of the reward. As we learn from the series of Herman Daly, and as we’ve seen from examples around the world, it does not need to be this way. Perhaps to change the thinking of elites, we need to change another system first; the way we educate the next generation. Here’s Josh Farley. [music continues then ends]

Joshua Farley 35:47

In the 20th century there’s been this huge effort by big businesses dedicated to convincing people around the world, but primarily in the richer countries, that capitalism was the only possible system and they identified it with freedom. You know, the freedom to do as you choose, which in my view is if you have to sell your labor as a—you know, as a commodity or starve, that’s not really freedom. First of all, the people who have the wealth and power to really change the paradigm, to get the message out, to [educate, 36:16] those with the wealth and power to have a big influence in the system are those who are least likely to want the system changed. On the other hand though, I think the overwhelming evidence now is that people see it all the time. They see the climate change, they see the incredible inequality of this system, and there’s a growing uproar against it.

David 36:39

[rousing music] Gaya Harrington is the author of Five Insights for Avoiding Global Collapse: What a 50-year-old Model of the World Taught Me About a Way Forward for us Today. This update of the original Limits to Growth study concludes that we are on the edge of ecological collapse unless we transform our society and move away from endless economic growth. Gaya wanted to ensure this warning could be free to access for all, because that’s a vital piece of the education puzzle. [music ends]

Gaya Herrington 37:16

I wanted to give information to people who weren’t already the converted. Who felt on some the level, “This is not going well, but what is it? What’s going on?” Because that’s why we see this radicalization so much. They’re anxious, their lives are precarious and they’re like, “Something’s wrong,” but they don’t know where to focus it on. And so someone on TikTok comes along in a video that says, “Well, really, it’s feminism or it’s immigrants.” If you don’t have any other information, it’s very easy to see how you get this rising populism that you’re currently witnessing.

David 37:46

[fast rhythmic music] But the challenge is immense as economist Ha-Joon Chang set out earlier this year in an op-ed for the Financial Times titled ‘Economics Teaching has become the Aeroflot of ideas’. Here’s some of it read by our writer and producer Peggy. [music continues then ends]

Peggy Whitfield 38:08

In the aftermath of the biggest financial crisis in three generations in 2007, economics students in the UK and elsewhere staged an uprising, demanding a fundamental reform of their curriculum. “We had never been taught economic history or that markets could implode,” they said, “Why are we being told a fairy tale?” Two decades on, the challenges facing humanity have multiplied and intensified; ecological crises, geopolitical clashes, deepening inequality and anti-democracy movements, to name just a few. But, shockingly, the curriculum being offered to incoming economics students this autumn remains the same.

David 38:49

But at least in Europe, things are starting to change and a city is at the heart of this transformation.

Angelos Varvarousis 38:57

I am Angelos Varvarousis. I am a professor here at the Autonomous University of Barcelona, a faculty member, a senior researcher and the director of the Masters of Degrowth: Ecology, Economics and Policy. My life was always very much connected to this idea of living better with less, which is a core principle of degrowth economics.

David 39:23

[slow rhythmic music] You might remember Peter Victor mentioning degrowth economics back in episode three. Herman said that in a world of ecological limits, pursuing endless GDP expansion leads to uneconomic growth. Growth that actually makes us poorer by degrading nature, deepening inequality and undermining wellbeing. Degrowth builds on these insights, calling for societies to scale back destructive production and consumption while investing in care, community and ecological balance. At the Autonomous University of Barcelona freethinking and rebellious academics are taking these ideas out of theory and into education. [Dev 40:15] launched one of the world’s first master’s programs in degrowth, training a new generation of thinkers and practitioners determined to change the world. [music continues then ends]

Angelos Varvarousis 40:29

Life is not the same in every city and not all cities are the same. But what we can do is first of all to start up from a different understanding of what a city is. When we think about post-growth cities and an application of some of the principles of degrowth economics in cities, but we can also add to things like avoiding vacant houses and all these processes that practically create an artificial scarcity of housing stock in the cities in order to regulate rent and extract as much profit as possible.

David 41:10

Many of the ideas and theories advocated for by degrowth academics and by the Autonomous University of Barcelona have struck a chord with city residents across Spain and beyond.

Angelos Varvarousis 41:25

We want people to take, like, an active role and don’t be only receivers of some invisible and increasingly less effective public authority that will do everything. So we need, like, a city based on the commons. We want a city in which communities can actively contribute to the making of their lives and should also find ways to negotiate their differences. Because if we don’t involve people in the decision making process, then what usually substitutes their presence in decision making is capital; money and capital expansion.

David 42:17

[fast rhythmic music] Alliances of academics, residents and urban policy makers can successfully push back against the ‘growth at all costs’ economic model. Barcelona’s neighborhoods have mobilized against mass tourism, protesting evictions, overcrowding and the hollowing out of local life. Their campaigns have centered tourism degrowth as a central idea, reducing its volume and impact on everyday life, as a result, city policy has now shifted. Over the coming years tourist rental licenses are being phased out, cruise ship visits capped and plazas reclaimed for residents. Barcelona now measures success not by visitor numbers, but by community wellbeing and the ecological balance.

My work at the C40 Center, the Journal of City Climate Policy and Economy, is also aiming to build a bridge between the academic world and cities by inspiring research through an urban lens. We hope to build a body of evidence to enable cities to implement policies which center people and planet. [music ends]

[melodic music] A big part of opening up this conversation also means including people previously excluded from it. And in the case of economics, one of these groups is women. Here’s Katy Shields reflecting on the struggles that Dana Meadows faced when working on the Limits to Growth study and which still persists today. [music ends]

Katy Shields 43:57

She was a successful scientist in her own right. She had a fellowship at Harvard which she actually gave up to go and work on the project that would become the Limits to Growth. She was highly respected in that group but, of course, in the public eye somewhat differently. And famously the German version of the book doesn’t even feature her as an author.

David 44:16

But there is also much work left to be done in the broader field of economics.

Katy Shields 44:22

The statistics, at least for the UK and the United States, show that it is pretty much the most male-dominated discipline. And I think part of that stems from the concepts which are quite abstract, the use of maths, and when you think about economics it really touches all of our lives. So the idea that we should just kind of have this one kind of narrow group of people and it tends to also be male in the Global North, it’s more white dominated, rather than more round and diverse group of people is, I think, a problem.

David 44:49

[slow rhythmic music] The underrepresentation of women in economics shouldn’t come as a surprise. Only two women were official delegates at the Bretton Woods Conference where our modern global economic order was decided, and neither were in a leading role. The creator of GDP, Simon Kuznets, was also a man so, of course, this measurement does not take into account the unpaid labor that women have historically done, such as childcare, housework, and care duties. Of course, recognizing and investing in care is part of the shift Herman called for; a move away from an economy of endless growth to one that sustains people, communities, and the planet. [music ends]

Katy Shields 45:39

And we also know that the only way to do that is also to recognize that our economies are based ultimately on care, so we need to be bringing more people in. We need to work in a more also distributive way and use different approaches to meeting our needs than purely kind of the market.

David 45:57

[slow rhythmic music] This is exactly what Tim Jackson, a close friend and collaborator of Herman, is trying to do. He’s pioneering what might be a new branch on the tree of ecological economics; the care economy. Thinking about economics through the lens of care offers a holistic view of our social fabric. The care economy directly refutes the neoliberal promise that growth is guaranteed to lead to health and happiness for all. [music continues then ends]

Tim Jackson 46:35

It is a false promise, and that promise is not just false from a psychological point of view, it’s extremely dangerous. If you choose to pursue a version of symbolic health, which is all around acquisition and greed and having more for the sake of having more, rather than one that applies that principle of care, of balance, then you end up in a world full of conflict, full of competition, full of violence, and ultimately full of war.

David 47:03

The care economy is also informed by the ends-means theory that Herman Daly developed with John Cobb. It helps us interrogate what matters to us as a society.

Tim Jackson 47:16

Care is used in all sorts of ways. Sometimes it’s used almost like the definition of the moral high ground. It’s a place to aim for. It’s sort of unassailably good. It’s like love and friendship and courage and all those things that, you know, if you have them you have a moral standing in society. If you don’t have them, then you’re a moral reprobate. And it seemed to me that when a word has this kind of moral, unassailability becomes analytically useless. Care demands attention and this is what makes it difficult in capitalism, because attention takes time and it means the time of people. It means the time of doctors and nurses, it means the time of people preparing food and people eating food, and those activities tend to be penalized under capitalism.

David 48:06

[melodic music] This emphasis on care echoes the work of Herman Daly and John Cobb who showed that economics must serve the common good, not just the market. The insights they shared in For the Common Good have gone on to inspire many others. Here’s Peggy, one of our writers and producers, reading an extract from a recent work that you might recognize. [music continues then ends]

Peggy Whitfield 48:32

Economic powers continue to justify the current global system where priority tends to be given to speculation and the pursuit of financial gain, which fail to take the context into account let alone the effects on human dignity and the natural environment. Here we see how environmental deterioration and human and ethical degradation are closely linked. Many people will deny doing anything wrong because distractions constantly dull consciousness of just how limited and finite our world really is.

David 49:04

[slow rhythmic music] Now, you may think this is an extract of Herman’s works from later in his life. In fact, it’s from Laudato Si by Pope Francis. This was the first papal encyclical devoted to the environment. Published in 2015 on the eve of COP21, Francis condemned the idolatry of endless growth and consumerism calling instead for an economy of care, what he called integral ecology. The impact was huge. Laudato Si reframed the climate crisis as a moral and spiritual crisis, inspiring faith communities worldwide and shaping debate at COP21, the conference which the Paris accord came out of. When Herman was asked if he saw his influence in Laudato Si, he was as humble as ever. [music ends]

Herman Daly 50:01

I would like to imagine that I saw it. I did see the influence of, well, the whole environmental movement, the Brazilian connection there Clóvis Cavalcanti, who was a Brazilian friend of mine, an economist in the northeast. We’ve been friends for a long time. Clóvis, actually, had an audience with the Pope.

Clóvis Cavalcanti 50:25

I met Pope first in November, 2016, and when I shook hands I said, “Pope Francis, I am here as President of the International Society for Ecological Economics.” He asked, “What is ecological economics?” I told the Pope first, “It’s exactly what your encyclical Laudato Si contains. It is a marvelous example of ecological economics and I’m here to offer our collaboration to promote the ideas contained in Laudato Si.” He was very pleased, though what he said was, “How can you help me?” I said, “We can organize a group to support,” and we organized a group of ecological economists including, for instance, the creator of the concept of the ecological footprint.

David 51:33

The work that started with this group is still ongoing, and has fed into the creation of The Ten Green Commandments.

Clóvis Cavalcanti 51:40

A consequence of this work is this book, The Ten Green Commandments of Laudato Si. It’s something that we were not expecting. Something that happened by itself, showing the relevance of our book.

David 51:58

[rousing music] The ‘ten green commandments’ were published by Catholic scholar Joshtrom Kureethadam in 2019. They distilled Pope Francis’s encyclical into 10 simple principles for action. These commandments echo the heart of ecological economics. Like Herman Daly’s steady-state vision, they call for limits, justice and stewardship. The aim is for them to be translated into Portuguese in time for COP30. This November, the COP will take place in the Brazilian city of Belém, in the heart of the Amazon. And the stakes couldn’t be higher. The Amazon, our planet’s lungs, is nearing a tipping point which could cause irreparable damage to our world. And what’s at stake goes far beyond the forest itself. If the Amazon falls, the costs will be felt first by indigenous communities, but then in our cities through heat waves, floods, food shortages and forced migration. Proposals on the table at COP include halting deforestation, scaling up finance for indigenous land rights, and redirecting investment away from destruction.

Marina Silva, the former rubber tapper whose collective story we explored last episode, will play a central role as environment minister for Brazil. In Belém, the city on the edge of the forest that shaped her life, she speaks not only with policy demands, but with the lived history of the people and ecosystems of the Amazon. Even multilateral development banks such as the World Bank are under pressure to reform so they’re lending better supports, protection of people and planet and prevents climate collapse. Of course, the World Bank has changed since the early 1990s, where we left it in the last episode, as John Redwood, the World Bank retiree, reminds us. [music ends]

John Redwood 54:15

It now has many more sociologists, anthropologists, political scientists, ecologists, environmental management specialists, and now a large number of climate change specialists. So, the staffing profile has changed incredibly over the last 50 years, really. The bank is also partnering much more with NGOs, with environmental organizations as well as with the other regional banks, and that’s part of the openness that’s really occurred primarily since the mid-1990s.

David 54:43

[slow rhythmic music] One of those changes has been the earmarking of climate finance for cities which the World Bank has prioritized. Between 2019 and 2022 the bank allocated 17.9 billion U.S. dollars worth of climate finance to projects in cities. And no doubt there are employees at the bank, who like Herman, want more rapid change. [music continues then ends]

John Redwood 55:11

The bank staff are incredibly dedicated, including to the bank mission. They’re serious, they’re hardworking, they’re very bright, and they’re often frustrated precisely because governments don’t always do what the bank would like [them 55:23] to do.

David 55:25

[slow rhythmic music] Some nations are also currently hard at work, but this year’s COP the Paris Agreements global stocktake will also be taking place. A process which will evaluate the collective progress of nations and stakeholders and which will reveal just how far we are from our planetary climate goals. And the COP in Brazil is yet another chance to change course to create a steady state future, one that respects ecological limits and protects the common good. [music ends]

But sadly, Herman Daly will not see the outcome. He passed away on October 28th, 2022.

Karen Daly Junker 56:09

[melodic music] It just was so devastating, you know? He was working on so much and then it was like, “That was it.” He was gone in less than 24 hours. It was really traumatic. I now have his desk. It really comforts me, you know, that I’m sitting at right now. But he had so much more work he could have done.

Tim Jackson 56:37

If Herman was alive today, I’m not sure. I mean, to some extent so much of what’s going on goes against principles that he fought to defend. I have no doubt that he would be out there fighting for those principles. I would love [chuckles] for him to be there. I would love to hear what he would say. I’d love to read what he would write. We draw strength from our intellectual forebears. We draw strength from our mentors and our heroes and Herman, to me and to many other people, was all those things and I would give anything for his advice right now.

David 57:25

It’s now up to us to take up the mantle that Herman Daly fought so hard to bring into existence. Really, it’s the only thing he ever wanted; a better world for all. We must continue to bring his vision into reality to create a future and an economy that lives within planetary boundaries. Here at the C40 Center we are aiming to be a part of Herman’s legacy by creating this podcast and continuing to feature research that echoes his ideas in the Journal of City Climate Policy and Economy because cities are key to this mission.

Here’s Jon Sward, environment project manager at the Bretton Woods Project. [music continues then ends]

Jon Sward 58:15

So, one of the things we really struggle with is the ability to imagine alternate futures, right? Especially when a lot of those seem like deeply theoretical. [laughs] So, certainly, like, cities have a role to play in proof of concept of a new type of economy. I think that’s vital and cities are, of course, often the economic hubs of national economic outlook, right? Cities can be proving grounds for a sort of economics that’s more equitable, that’s more redistributive, that’s fairer. I think the role of cities in trying to take on some of this new thinking and demonstrate that it’s doable, that there is an alternative, is really important, actually.

David 58:58

[classical music] But it’s not just cities. All of the people we’ve spoken to over the course of our journey with Herman are continuing to advocate for and to implement his ideas. Brian Czech continues his work with the Center for the Advancement of the Steady-state Economy, now with a staff of seven. The International Society for Ecological Economics, ISEE, and all of its global branches are bringing Herman’s vision to life. Peter Victor published Herman’s biography in 2021 and is continuing his legacy; seeking out a path to a more hopeful future. [music continues then ends]

Peter Victor 59:41

I have been working on simulating future alternative trajectories for national economies, in particular Canada though we’re now working on the U.S.. And the idea here is to say, “Look, here’s our situation. For many reasons it’s not looking good. What are the options for the future? How do we go from where we are now to something that looks better over, let’s say, the next 50 years?”

David 01:00:04

[classical music] Economists like Gaya Harrington, Kate Raworth and Katy Shields continue to expand the bandwidth of economics. Rob Dietz ensures that Herman’s epiphany goes on to inspire others through his work at the Post Carbon Institute and his podcast Crazy Town. Peter May, Josh Farley and Bob Costanza produce world leading research in Vermont, Rio and London respectively. And when he is not working on ecological economics projects, Clóvis Cavalcanti is doing his bit to restore the green barrier in his corner of the world through permaculture on his farm.

But what about us? What can we do? Here’s Peter May, an ecological economist we heard from last episode, drawing on his experiences during the Bolsonaro years. [music continues then ends]

Peter May 01:01:03

There’s this subterfuge that the model of the development that is being pursued is beneficial to the working class, but it is not. Certainly the question of inequity is being perpetuated by these structures, and obviously any kind of responsiveness to the problems of the environment, be they local environment or global environment, are being subjugated to the demands of an authoritarian model that negates and denies. What to do about that is obviously just push back, you know? [laughs] And it’s the only thing we can do, is push back.

Katy Shields 01:01:48

So, trying to also make the link not just with the climate and the environmental side, which is sometimes seen as elite. And that even goes back to limits to growth. They have the same kind of critiques lobbed at them or you’re just, you know, elite up there in your ivory tower. But the reality on the ground is people need to put food on the table. We need to, you know, make ends meet. It’s about meeting our needs, right? We can’t continue to take from the planet, it’s already costing us and I guess trying to, you know, broaden the movement as much as we can.

Brian Czech 01:02:18

If Herman were here right now, I think he would tell us to first of all keep doing what we’re doing and be encouraged by the fact that we have sound science and common sense on our side. Neoliberalism, Wall Street, neoclassical economic growth sound science and common sense are not on their side when they’re talking about, “Oh yeah, there’s no conflict between growing the economy and protecting the environment,” or, “There’s no limit to growth on a finite planet,” you know? So, we’ve got some giants on our side and we need to keep referring to them, pointing at them.

David 01:03:03

[slow rhythmic music] Herman’s life here on earth might be finished, but the story of what we do to safeguard our planet and all those who live on it endures. And however dark these times may seem, we should emulate Herman and persevere.

Denis Lynn Daly Heyck 01:03:24

He did this archery badge for scouts, boy scouts, and I remember him sitting there on the driveway—because he just had the one arm, he was sitting there in the driveway and had the bow between his feet, was holding it, and then he would pull the string back and shoot the arrow into the garage door practicing his archery. This was in the broiling sun. And I thought that was really quite amazing that he could even do that much less, you know, finally get the badge.

David 01:04:03

As Herman said in one of his final interviews with David Marchese in the New York Times in 2022.

Jess Schmidt 01:04:11

My duty is to do the best I can and put out some ideas. Whether the seed that I plant is going to grow up is not up to me, it’s just up to me to plant it and water it.

David 01:04:26

We have his words, his work, and his legacy, and we also have his belief that a better story for this world of ours is possible. Now it’s up to us to create the ending as Herman and John Cobb, Jr. set out in For the Common Good over 25 years ago. [music continues then ends]

Peggy Whitfield 01:04:50

Yet there is hope on a hotter planet, with lost deltas and shrunken coastlines, under a more dangerous sun, with less arable land, more people, fewer species of living things, a legacy of poisonous wastes, and much beauty irrevocably lost, there will still be the possibility that our children's children will learn at last to live as a community among communities. Perhaps they will also learn to forgive this generation, its blind commitment to ever greater consumption. Perhaps they will even appreciate its belated efforts to leave them a planet still capable of supporting life in community.

David 01:05:30

[classical music] Herman was an astonishingly prolific academic, an excellent speaker and a brilliant mind, but he was also a loving brother, husband, and father. He was a thoroughly good man with a zest for all the good things in life.

Herman Daly 01:05:53

I enjoy music very much. I love to listen. My tastes in music developed without particular care or instruction just from the radio, which in Texas was country music.

Terri Daly Stewart 01:06:08

Many times when I was practicing music, I would turn around and there he is sitting on the couch, you know, looking at me and smiling.

Karen Daly Junker 01:06:16

He was a great teacher and mentor and the people I’ve met throughout my life, gosh, after—when he died, so many messages came from students and just people I grew up with. It was the most overwhelming sense of how kind he was and how he kind of just made sure everyone was okay. And all my friends said, “He was the coolest dad in the neighborhood.”

Terri Daly Stewart 01:06:42

I think he really felt a compelling need to protect the earth, to be a steward of this planet. I think he was very open to all cultures, all people. His going through hard times in his life as a young person, he just saw things in a very different way. I think he saw the bigger picture, you know? He saw the calling not so much the minutiae.

Speaker 01:07:10

In Herman’s case he was really very much a visionary. A visionary who had a plan. An idea of how things could be different and better. [music continues then ends]

Peter Victor 01:07:26

[radio static] [melodic music] What do you consider to be your own most important contribution?

Herman Daly 01:07:30

Hmm. Well, I guess the role I’ve played in developing ecological economics, steady-state economics and sort of bringing about more attention than was previously given to biophysical foundations, and the other end of the spectrum, the ethical question. Trying to bring those things together.

Peter Victor 01:07:58

What does happiness mean for you?

Herman Daly 01:08:00

Hmm… well, it means being with good people. Being with people you like and love and at least having the illusion that you’re doing something worthwhile.

Peter Victor 01:08:20

What do you hope for the future of economics?

Herman Daly 01:08:23

Hmm….

Peter Victor 01:08:24

Well, you can answer that in two. What would you like to see, and what do you think you’ll see?

Herman Daly 01:08:27

[laughs] Well, clearly what I hope for is that they’ll say, “Hey, ecological economics, that’s the way to go.”

Peter Victor 01:08:36

All right. Well, I think we’re done for now. Thank you. [chuckles]

Herman Daly 01:08:39

Well, okay. By golly. [laughs]

Peter Victor 01:08:42

Let’s shake hands on that.

Herman Daly 01:08:43

I will. I will, indeed. [radio static] [music ends]

David 01:08:50

[fast rhythmic music] Thank you for listening to this miniseries. It’s work like this that keeps Herman’s ideas alive. We hope that Herman Daly’s life story and the work that cities, individuals and social movements are doing across the globe has shown that it is possible to challenge and change the status quo to create a better future for both humanity and for the planet. [music ends]

[jazz music] This has been Going Steady with Herman Daly: How to Unbreak the Economy (and the Planet).

I’m David Miller. I was the mayor of Toronto, Canada, and I know firsthand the role cities can play in solving the climate crisis. Currently, I’m the editor in chief of the Journal of City Climate Policy and Economy, published by the University of Toronto Press in collaboration with the C40 Center, the think tank for cities and climate, where I’m also the managing director. C40’s mission is to use the voices and the actions of the mayors of the world’s greatest cites to help the world avoid climate breakdown.

Special thanks must go to the Daly family for their support and generosity in telling Herman’s story. Thanks also to our consultants and fact checkers for the series, Peter Harnik, Rob Dietz and Peter Victor, the latter who also graciously shared his interview recordings with Herman from 2022 to use on the show.

This podcast is written and produced by Jessica Schmidt and Peggy Whitfield and edited by Morgane Chambrin. Our executive producer is Chiara Morfeo.

The fight that Herman Daly started is still alive and thriving today. To learn more, visit the show’s website linked in the episode notes. See you next time. [music continues then stops]