What does a good life mean for you?

In this episode of Cities 1.5, David and his guests from countries on opposite sides of the equator, South Africa and Scotland, explore how urban initiatives are transforming local communities through holistic climate action and wellbeing practices. Linear economic systems - previously the global status quo - have been proven time and again to be ineffective at prioritizing wellbeing for all…especially when we compare them with circular models that emphasize restoration. Grassroots projects like Scotland's Love Letham and Johannesburg's Makers Valley, which focus on sustainable development, community engagement, and empowerment naturally emphasize the importance of inclusivity, indigenous values, and collective action in addressing socioeconomic and environmental challenges. Our expert guests in this episode demonstrate how in both the Global South and North, participatory decision-making and community-driven projects can tackle poverty, improve health, and enhance urban resilience by integrating climate and anti-poverty policies.

Image Credit: Photo by Jeswin Thomas @Unsplash

Featured guests:
Thobile Chittenden is Network Co-Lead at the Wellbeing Economy Alliance and the CEO of the Makers Valley Partnership in Johannesburg, South Africa.

Hollie Irvine is the Project Lead of Love Letham in Perth, Scotland - one of four Wellbeing Economy pilot city projects from the Wellbeing Economy Alliance (WEAll).

Links
Lessons in Wellbeing Economics: Engaging local communities to bring Academic Principles into Urban Practice - Episode 12, Season 3, Cities 1.5
Policy Design for a Wellbeing Economy - Lessons from Four City Pilots - The Journal of City Climate Policy & Economy, Volume 2 Issue 2, January 2024
Wellbeing Economy Alliance
Makers Valley 
A New Story Unfolds - Poem by Thobile Chittenden
Love Letham Project - Perth, Scotland
Official child poverty statistics - Child Poverty Action Group (Scotland)
New report shows what Letham’s children need to thrive - Love Letham website

If you want to learn more about the Journal of City Climate Policy and Economy, please visit our website: https://jccpe.utpjournals.press/

Cities 1.5 is produced by the University of Toronto Press and Cities 1.5 is supported by C40 Cities and the C40 Centre for City Climate Policy and Economy. You can sign up to the Centre newsletter here. https://thecentre.substack.com/

Our executive producers are Calli Elipoulos and Peggy Whitfield.

Produced by Jess Schmidt: https://jessdoespodcasting.com/

Edited by Morgane Chambrin: https://www.morganechambrin.com/

Music is by Lorna Gilfedder: https://origamipodcastservices.com/

Transcript

David 00:00

[Cities 1.5 main theme music] I'm David Miller and you're listening to Cities 1.5, a podcast exploring how cities are leading global change through local climate action. [music fades out] 

[urgent music] What does a good life mean to you? Well, for me, it means having decent, interesting work, it means having enough financial stability to be able to meet the needs of my family, and, for me, it particularly means a connection with nature, being able to canoe, for example, in one of Canada's wonderful national or provincial parks. That's a good life to me.

But, a good life for everyone is really quite a fundamental idea. For individuals and communities to thrive and prosper, we need to know that people's basic needs are met. We need connection because being part of a community means we're all more inclined to give back. A sense of belonging gives us a drive to ensure that our surroundings are safe, healthy, and enjoyable for ourselves and for those that we share our lives with. [music ends] 

[driving, pensive music] But, in much of the world today, our current linear economics values growth and consumption over good living, happiness, and wellness. Capitalism, greed, and inequality are the symptoms born from these conventional economic models. As a result, those from all around the world who contribute the least to these problems end up suffering the most. [music ends] 

[energetic, upbeat music] There is hope for a cure – a circular system that values restoration, regeneration, and holistic  wellness for all, both as individuals and communities because, at the core of everything, it boils down to this humbling idea – if we don't have a healthy planet, we cannot live healthy lives. Building happy, healthy lives and protecting the planet from the worst ravages of climate breakdown involves making huge systemic change. But the steps towards these seismic shifts, which incorporate social, health, and economic justice, are already happening from the bottom up.

Grassroots holistic initiatives, which fundamentally reshape possibilities, based on what it means to be healthy, happy and prosperous, can be found in cities and neighbourhoods across the globe. Often, they are co-created by communities and populations whose voices, hopes, and dreams have been historically sidelined, marginalized, or simply ignored. If humankind is serious about making the profound changes to our current and dangerously outdated neoliberal economic system, it is crucial that we begin to listen and learn from communities who are already walking a different path. º

[light, rhythmic music] So, what does putting the health and wellbeing of planet and people first actually look like? The C40 Centre often acts as a bridge between academic ideas and real, on-the-ground urban action, which promotes equality and fights back against the climate crisis.

We'll be hearing more about the Love Letham Project in Perthshire County, Scotland, which puts children's wishes for a cleaner, greener, and safer city into practice. You may remember mention of this project in last season's finale, when we spoke with Amanda Janoo. She was one of the contributors to volume 2, issue 2 of the Journal of City Climate Policy and Economy that was published in early 2024. Her co-authored article with Lisa Hough-Stewart titled Policy Design For a Wellbeing Economy: Lessons From Four Pilot Cities outlined some of the lessons learned from recent practical pilots across the world, including in Perth. [music ends] 

[rhythmic electronic music] But first, we're going to be speaking to another expert from the Wellbeing Economy Alliance, Thobile Chittenden, who is also the CEO of the fabulous Makers Valley Partnership. We'll be finding out from her what grassroots efforts towards creating a good life for all have achieved in a previously neglected neighbourhood of Johannesburg, South Africa. [music ends]  

Thobile Chittenden 05:01 

[rotary dial telephone rings] [clicks] Hello, my name is Thobile Chittenden. I'm from Johannesburg, South Africa, and my role is the Network Co-Lead at Wellbeing Economy Alliance, as well as CEO of Makers Value Partnership. [receiver chimes, replaced in cradle]

David 05:16

Thanks so much for joining us today. I'm delighted to have you on Cities 1.5. You've got a fascinating background, and I want to take the listeners right into some really personal things that I've learned about you because your work, to me, is at the intersection of this theoretical idea—the Wellbeing Economy Alliance—and very practical work, changing people's lives through the Makers Valley Partnership.

There's a wonderful spoken-word piece that you've performed, which can be found, by the way, for our listeners. on the Wellbeing Economy Alliance's YouTube channel; it's called A New Story Unfolds, which I felt was very personal to you. Can you talk a little bit about that piece why you recorded it and what it means to? 

Thobile Chittenden 06:07 

That piece... I was a fellow of the Post Growth Institute. They have a fellowship, specifically for Majority world participants or Global South and, essentially, people write blogs, papers... I actually wanted to do something a little bit different that can connect and resonate potentially in a different way. I did this poem, [chuckling lightly] but essentially, I'm not a poet, by any means, and had really already started working on some of this narrative because I am passionate about the future of Africa and what that looks like. And, I think, if we are going to envision what that looks like, we need to start imagining, and we need to start discussing and having spaces to story tell and collaborate on that vision.

So, this is just one of many, I guess, visions for Africa but that vision really comes from the sense of going back to this Pan-African idea. I think a lot of that poem speaks to what Africa actually was in some instances and how we can reconnect with who we were and how that gives us some identity for what we are wanting to be, going forward.

And, I think the big issue is that we have gone through colonization and westernization and have lost some of our values and our ideals and our capabilities. Although they are still apparent, I think a lot of us—especially my generation—feel that disconnect to our elders, feel the disconnect to our land, to each other, because through westernization, we're prioritizing, you know, individualization and technology and all these things. And so, we've lost a little bit of that humanity.

In South Africa we speak about Ubuntu. Ubuntu really speaks about humanity and there is no me without you, and you without me. It actually doesn't even have an “i”, you know, as you can't see individually; you just see as a whole, the community. And so, this shared humanity is so important, and I think it's about going back to some of those ideals, but also knowing that we are a new era of Africans, and what does that look like and feel like? And I hope some of that poem speaks to that, speaks to how we see the land, how we see each other, how we see our interactions with one another, this shared sense of prosperity, unity, celebrating our stories.

I think the big thing is celebrating who we are as Africans. For so long, we've been told that we're inferior, but actually our stories are beautiful and they're innovative and just extraordinary. [driving music] And so, how do we celebrate the stories of old, but also the new stories that we have? And, I think a lot of those obviously tie in to the spirit of wellbeing economies and to a post-growth era where we are not driven by greed or GDP as the kind of metric for who we are, but actually those systems serve who we truly are and hopefully kind of allow us to flourish. [music ends] 

David 09:33

It's very interesting to me that you connect your academic work around wellbeing and post-growth with your vision and hopes for Africa, as a whole. Can you just talk a little bit about your academic work and how that played into that vision?

Thobile Chittenden 09:52 

My actual background is in advertising and marketing, so I am passionate about storytelling and linking people to spaces they've been excluded from. I think that really is at the heart of my passion. And so, being part of the Wellbeing Economy Alliance and post-growth fellowships and these types of spaces, I am very aware that sometimes the dialogue or the conversation is really just the words that I use, the jargon – it doesn't bring people to the table, and people that are not necessarily always there.

And so, even in my context, I come from a community called Makers Valley and, you know, we don't, off the bat, speak about our wellbeing economy. We speak about these principles and values that we have as a community. What are the things that we really, truly value? And, these things are often very similar to what a wellbeing economy values. If you look at our five WeAll needs, we speak about dignity, we speak about nature being at the heart of things and being regenerative, we speak about people being active citizens, we speak about justice. And, I think, you know, globally, if you go into any community, these values are shared, and I think that's a starting point for me. The question that we ask in Makers Valley, actually, is the question, "What does 'a good life' really mean to you?"

And sometimes, that conversation starts off quite materialistically. People speak about cars or mansions and those types of things, but when we say, "Really, what does a good life really mean?" people then start to dig deep and speak about those types of values.

And so, yeah, my passion is, I guess, bridging these conversations between academia and people living in communities like Makers Valley, and hopefully connecting these narratives in a way that is meaningful. 

David 11:52

Do you have any insights about how the expression of those ideas, in your context, in Jo'burg, in South Africa, differs from the expression of them in, let's say, the United Kingdom or North America, and maybe some lessons that people can learn from, how the wellbeing ideas are being interpreted in Jo’burg?

Thobile Chittenden 12:16 

So, my journey actually started at Makers Valley before I joined the Wellbeing Economy Alliance and, essentially, I came across this community at around 2018/2019. But, essentially, it's about this community that is quite unique in a sense because it is so many different African populations living in this one area, so it's quite diverse by that nature, but also quite tough because they often do not have papers, they're undocumented, and so are very, for the most part, exploited by organizations that are not wanting to pay, etc., etc. So, it's a tough community, but also so beautiful just in terms of the diversity and the rich culture and heritage that exists there.

[gentle music] I heard this wellbeing economy concept—light bulb moment—and thought, "I have to get involved.” And, what was beautiful about this is the co- creation process, and I can't emphasize that enough, is the approach for the development of this community was from the bottom up. It was going to the community to us. "What do you want to see in your community?" And, this question, "What does a good life really mean to you?" that was the starting point. [music fades out] And, when we started to sift these ideals and values and the things that they are wanting to feel in their community and experience, this is when this name, Makers Valley, actually was co-created by the community.

And, I think this model and approach is very different to how other NGOs operate. They come up with a name. They're an NGO, and they come in to rescue or save communities, and actually, this community said, "No, we have this lived experience. Surely, that makes us somewhat experts in the reality that we're facing from the social and environmental crises that we live on a day-to-day basis." Because they are so immersed in the environmental degradation, the issues with the river that runs through our community, the crime and the poverty, and all these things, we said, "We want your ideas. We will create the space and the platform, but we are wanting to engage with your ideas and use social entrepreneurship as a vehicle to make them a reality."

And so, this community has been really special in the sense that the ideas that have flourished from these social enterprises have been extraordinary – quite grassroots, but things like Love Our City Klean, who are a couple in this community who are focused on waste management said, "Hey, if we can get the community to recycle, if we can all start practicing recycling, which is not a concept that is practiced much in our community, we can think about food security initiatives that match that recycling." And so, from that, the community currency has been formed, rewarding recycling and giving access to food.

And, so many different ideas have sprouted from that, but I would say what's special about it is that these things have been organic. It's come from conversations. It's come from the community knowing one another, mapping ideas, looking at the passions and talents that we have, community wealth-building, look at the assets that we have in the community, and really looking also at partnerships with some bigger organizations that exist.

And so, yeah, Makers Valley, we became members of WeAll, the Wellbeing Economy Alliance, and I became the Network Co-Lead, and that's exposed me to, obviously, a plethora of different communities across the world that are approaching wellbeing in various ways. And, I think the big differences that I am aware of, in terms of Global South and Global North, is I definitely think the approach, recognizing the way that people live and engage in a space, is going to look different, and so, in the Majority World, there is this real recognition of inequality, of unemployment, and these are things that maybe will make our models or vehicles for a wellbeing economy differ slightly.

I think we're very passionate about inclusive approaches, but the model that we've incorporated with social entrepreneurship actually gives everybody a sense of ownership, this act of citizenship – that they're not just recipients of what the city is doing or what this [unclear 16:54] is doing. Actually, their ideas being implemented, and they're much more likely to stay in the community because they've got buy-in, I guess.

David 17:07

[driving music] I want to turn a little bit to the systemic implications of what you've seen. You came to Wellbeing (Economy Alliance) from Makers Valley, rather than the other way around, which is very interesting. But, you have had a chance to think about these issues in a very profound way. Do you have any thoughts about how the fixation on measuring transactions, gross domestic product profit, as opposed to people, has impacted South Africa and Africa in general, and where you've seen maybe less-desirable impacts on people, and on ecosystems, and on health and other issues?

Thobile Chittenden 17:50 

Yeah, I think, obviously, globally, we are seeing movements around beyond GDP. Looking at GDP as a metric, that is not sufficient to measure the wellbeing of people and planet. And so, in South Africa and Africa, of course, we feel that even more so, I guess the impact of that, not so much, you know, looking at the measurements, but I think we feel the effects of Minority World using this, and it's led to extractive practices, I guess, in Africa, and has left our environments exploited. There's a lot of environmental degradation. It's led to social inequality. There's been damaging of our ecosystems. You know, if you think of mining, of the oil, of the capital that we have in Africa, in that sense, it's led to a lot of extractiveness or extractivism in Africa. [music fades out] 

Our waterways have been polluted, and that impacts our public health. So, there's so much that we have been impacted by, by these types of measures. I don't think it's an active conversation, as yet, in Africa, the concept of GDP not being an efficient measure, but I do think it's something that is building momentum and it's interesting for us to have that. And, I do think the discussions around Africa industrialization and, you know, these terms of "developing" and "becoming developed," we often look to the Western world on what being developed looks like, and industrialization is so much a part of that. And, it's actually such a pain point for me because it's part of the narrative that has been imposed on us that, “This is good. This is better. This is what we need to strive to." And, I think, for a lot of young Africans, they are seeing this on music videos and social media, etc. It's very difficult to say, "Actually, we need to think of an indicator that values other things besides the things that you are seeing and aspiring towards."

And so, I think it is a bit of a nuanced conversation from an African perspective. Of course, if you look at the doughnut economic model, there are a lot of social foundations that we are lacking, and so we need to come into the doughnut in a number of sectors, but at the same time, we don't want to repeat the injustices, I guess, environmentally and socially, of the Global North, as well, in the Global South. And so, how can we learn from the lessons of the Minority World, and for that to be apparent and spoken honestly to our audiences is quite an interesting feat.

And, one of the things that we are doing in Africa and South Africa, specifically, is speaking about African liberation, and this ties into that poem that I was sharing at the beginning, is what does African liberation mean, knowing that we have been unequally, I guess, affected by climate change and all of these things, and there's a lot of historical injustice. How do we look forward in a way that acknowledges those injustices?

So, to be honest, I do think it's a tough conversation and it's an interesting conversation because, of course, our governments are striving towards this developed concept. How do we have these conversations, recognizing, yes, we still have a long way to go in terms of getting into the doughnut, but how do we also ensure that we do the practices that we have in order to get there, are just, are sustainable, and regenerative, and put the people on the planet first?

David 21:37

You spoke a little bit about some of the actual practical work that's happened because of the engagement with residents in Makers Valley. Could you give one or two other examples of how particular projects or activities had a positive impact on the mental and physical health of residents, their livelihoods, the environment, anything else that benefitted?

Thobile Chittenden 22:02 

Sure. So, I think this example I've mentioned of lever sticking, partnering with another local organization called The People's Pantry, starting with recycling as an access or means to access food security has been beautiful, and it kind of was the energizer for other ideas. But, this community currency, I must say, is something that we are engaging with even further. So, it started off as a Google Sheets kind of exercise and it's evolved into this coding where we have a digital currency called MVPs and that allowed for, in that process, young people in our community who were interested in coding to start developing those skills and using technology in a positive way, in a local way, done by people in the community was just such a beautiful thing to see.

The other thing The People's Pantry have done is engage with people in our community, the gogos, the mamas in our community to support in their food security. So, we've set up six community kitchens that are run by these ladies who would otherwise not be working, who support the community every Tuesday and Thursday, and have been provided the assets of gas stoves, pots and pans, and they're able to use those assets, not only to cook for the community on a Tuesday and Thursday, but also to use those assets for their own businesses, and they cook at spaza shops and they sell plates, etc. So, it's a very micro social enterprise that has benefited women that were unemployed but, at the same time, has improved our community. 

Another example could be the urban gardening and urban farming initiatives that we have in our community – obviously, more food security initiatives. We've also had BRM—Bertrams Residents Movement. Bob Thomas, he is somebody that's been very passionate about the safety and security of our community, and looked at unemployment and we also found that, actually, the many gogos who are the grandmothers of the community are at home, not working, but they're often on the stoop, or you might call it the porch, where you can see the things. You're on the porch, sipping your tea and these gogos would actually see crime in front of their eyes, and we equipped these gogos through the Bertrams Residents Movement, with walkie talkies and it's a gogo-informed kind of community safety initiative. And, these issues or spots of crime are then escalated, of course, to our police, etc., but it's an innovative way to kind of engage unemployment in our community.

We have done bigger things like the Social Employment Fund, which is through our government and it's employed 125 people in our community for work that contributes to the common good, and so this has supported cleaning and greening on the streets of our community.

David 25:21

[pensive music] I want to thank you so much for being with us, but much more importantly for the fascinating work, which is a real example to me of how you step back to first principles and build community and think about ideas of economics, which can be very abstract, as really tools to help build community and ensure that people can thrive, which is how you start the conversation.

We really appreciate your time, being with us today, and your ongoing work. Thank you so very much. 

Thobile Chittenden 25:53 

Thank you, David. I really appreciate the time you've taken, as well. [music ends] 

David 26:05

[light, driving music] This episode of Cities 1.5 is produced by University of Toronto Press with generous support from C40 Cities. Want more access to current research on how city leaders are approaching climate action? We also publish the Journal of City Climate Policy and Economy. Our mission is to publish timely, evidence-based research that contributes to the urban climate agenda and supports governmental policy toward an equitable and resilient world. The Journal serves as a platform for dynamic content that highlights ambitious, near-term climate action, with a particular focus on human-centred solutions to today's most pressing climate challenges. To read the latest issue, visit JCCPE.utpjournals.press or click on our link in the show notes.

26:58

[light, rhythmic music] With our next guest, we're heading north to Europe to hear how working-class children's wellbeing, safety, and health lies at the heart of a city's plan to create a better future for all. [music ends] 

Hollie Irvine 27:14 

[rotary dial telephone rings] [clicks] My name is Hollie Irvine. I am the Project Lead for the Love Letham Project and I am joining you from Perth, Bonnie Scotland. [receiver chimes, replaced in cradle]

David 27:29

Hollie, welcome to Cities 1.5, and thank you so much for being with us. 

Hollie Irvine 27:34 

Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it. 

David 27:37

Could you just tell our listeners a little bit about yourself, your background, and what you do, today? 

Hollie Irvine 27:43 

I am the Project Lead for the Love Letham Project, which is a project run by Wellbeing Economy Alliance and it's funded by Catanach. And, Letham is a small place; we would maybe call it a suburb or a working-class area in Perth city in Scotland. About me... I grew up in Letham. I've lived here, pretty much, 30 years now, and I'm still living here and working on the project, which is pretty cool.

And, before that though, I was a business owner, so I ran a digital marketing agency, I ran a local community magazine and I've always been very heavily engaged in local affairs and happenings around the area. This job came up to be the Project lead for the Love Letham Project where I was living, to help the children—you know, I was once a child here—and I jumped at it. You know, I knew it was the job for me. And here we are, and I am, you know, loving every second of it. 

David 28:42

Perhaps we need to talk a little bit about Perth and Letham to those listeners who aren't from Perth. So, can you just give a snapshot of Perth, and then a little bit about the neighbourhood where you grew up and the challenges that children there might face today?

Hollie Irvine 28:59 

I love Perth. It's one of my favourite places. So, it's pretty much in the north of Scotland, I would say, just above the central area. It's part of the local authority, kind of autonomous area of Perth and Kinross, and that's the council authority, and that's about 5,300 km2, so it's huge. I think I once read somewhere it's like the size of Berlin or Brussels, and the Perth city is actually just the small kind of urban city right in the middle. It's the fifth-largest council region in Scotland and there's around 150,000 residents across the entirety of Perth and Kinross. About 40,000 of those residents live in Perth city centre, and around 7,000 of those residents live in Letham.

So, Letham is a suburb of Perth and what you'd often describe as a mini city. It's a generally young, working-class-and-proud community. We have three primary schools, we have a new community hall, a really great community. But, it is a highly densely-populated area. The housing profile is made up mostly of high rises, flats, apartments, a lot of people kind of squidged together in one small area of Perth, and this brings a huge amount of challenges with it.

But, I guess, the issues that children face, really, growing up in Letham, housing is a big issue. Housing's an issue, I think anywhere, in the world that you go, but really, in Letham, it feels a lot of time like we're squished in like sardines here, and I think that makes things difficult for children, growing up, because you know what? If housing isn't appropriate, then they need to spend time outside and our environment around Letham is not fit for purpose for them.

[driving, pensive music] So, community safety is a big concern in the area, and mental health and trauma and addiction road safety – big things that have come out of this project and for children growing up. And, as well, a big thing for growing up in Letham is also the stigma that's been attached to it, or the kind of judgment that people from Letham feel, and that's also a big battle when you're growing up as a child where, you know, it can be difficult, I think. 

David 31:16

What is the child poverty rate in Letham? 

Hollie Irvine 31:18 

The child poverty rate across Scotland is 24% of children live in relative or absolute poverty. Child poverty rate, I think I struggle because I don't know how accurate measuring poverty is. Sometimes, I get frustrated with how we look and measure poverty. [music ends] 

David 31:40

So, let's talk about the project, itself. Can you just kind of outline the project and how does it aim to address some of those challenges that you were just speaking to, of housing, of safety, of a connection with the outdoors, of transportation, of even reputation or confidence, if I can call it that? 

Hollie Irvine 32:08 

That's a good word. So, generally speaking, the Love Letham Project, at its core, is a children's participation project. It aims to put children's wellbeing at the centre of local decision-making, of budget setting. So, we'll go further than just asking adults; we're asking children, "What do you need to live a better life? What do you need so your wellbeing will flourish? And what does our economy need to provide for you?" 

So, we've been working with key partners to do deep-delve participation with children in each of the primary schools, with babies, toddlers, early years, young families, young people at youth groups. I think now we've probably hit 25% of the Letham population of people we've asked and talked to, or just had a cup of tea with. It's 800 children we spoke to, so unbelievable.

But, we've also, on top of that, set up an Adults' Commission, so this Adults' Commission has got members of the local authority, local council members, elected officials, third-sector organizations, and lived-experience community members. So, all these children are doing this deep research. They're understanding what wellbeing means, they're understanding their own rights, their children's rights, they're defining problems, so key problems are frightening behaviour and unsafe spaces or lack of spaces, or lack of appropriate outdoor spaces for them.

These are these big issues for them. I mean, the adults get together to facilitate on-the-ground action, so what we've recently done is we've developed a 30-page action plan and I've logged all of the feedback, all of the information that children have given us, and I've logged all the progress that we start to make as a community, so we've just developed a community hall and they have started putting on events and activities that the children have asked for.

We now have further addiction support in the community. We have an extra community safety warden. So, we've logged all that, and we've also logged further actions and who can support us. So, it's not just about us asking the council. We're asking the university, we're asking the schools, we're asking our neighbours. So, it's this kind of collective push to really deliver for the children and their wellbeing in their area. And, the action plan will also go to the children and then they're going to be awarded some money, as well, so that they can start to do their own budgeting and maybe prioritize some of the quick wins, new bins or lights.

And, we've been also working with the council. They've been so supportive. Perth and Kinross Council – we send them all of our feedback, all the departments, and then the planning department, the transport department, every department, saying, "This is what these kids want," and we're working on some more targeted wellbeing budgeting work for them. So, we're looking at how we can redesign local authority budgets to have poverty and inequality right at the core, from the day we set these budgets. And, that's a bigger piece of work with WeAll Scotland on kind of anti-poverty budgeting.

WeAll is the Wellbeing Economy Alliance. We're always working together to address the challenges of the children and we've still got four or five months of the project left. We have an action plan. And then, hopefully, we'll have an event and we'll have some kind of legacy where, you know, we're looking at setting up a children's council or a panel or a pot of money for them. So, this could be ongoing. 

David 35:31

One of the things that really jumped out at me from this work, in addition to the sense of ownership of the streets from a safety perspective, was the importance that children highlighted about free public services, particularly green spaces, community gardens, public transport, safe roads, and libraries and they really jumped out at me because, in the business world, and I'm sure you experienced this, it's always the bottom line, "How much profit did you make?" not, "How much good did you do?" and I found that a really powerful insight that children from primary schools would be speaking about the need for parks, green spaces, community gardens, public transport, libraries.

Hollie Irvine 36:17 

[rhythmic music] All of this project is everything's interlinked, especially when you're talking about, you know, working class or communities that are high-poverty communities. It's so multi-dimensional, but outdoor space is so, so important for these children, especially, as well, if we talk about housing and, you know, you're in an overcrowded house, you have to be outside. They want to ride their bikes, they want to ride their scooters down the streets, but there's cars parked on the pavement. They want to go to the park, but there's glass bottles at the park. There's litter everywhere. The equipment's not fit for purpose, so I think we're now at the stage where we're really wanting to figure out what the solutions are, and we're looking at long-term solutions, as well as short-term solutions. So, long-term solutions, preventative policy, it's like, "Well, why are people drinking on the streets? Why are there so many cars in our community? Why are people parking on the pavements where other people need to walk?" [music fades out] 

We're really questioning these whys, but also we're trying to make it so that the children, on the quick ones, can make those decisions – if they need more street lighting, if they feel like a park's safer, they can then go and fix that and improve that. Children don't feel that they can't play outside, or they don't feel it safe, you know, that's going to deeply impact their lives, growing up. If they can't ride their scooters or their bikes, that impacts their mental and physical health.

If they're surrounded by addiction, you know, this will take us [unclear 37:36] for years to come. Mental and physical health are deeply intertwined with our feeling of community and our feeling of being safe, I'm finding, in this project. And then, children might take to being anti-social or they'll spend all their time in their house, in recluse from their community because they don't feel comfortable, they don't feel safe. 

David 37:54

So, can you speak, from your perspective a bit, about how the health and wellbeing of children and the adults in the neighbourhood too, is linked with bigger issues like the local environment as a whole, prosperity, the health of the planet? Has being involved with this project given you a chance to reflect on those kinds of connections with the local to the global? And if so, do you have any thoughts? 

Hollie Irvine 38:22 

None of this sits on its own. But, if we just even take one example here, like broken glass, that's an issue because, you know, broken glass containers, plastic, all of this, these are huge issues for our globe. They're landfill and rubbish that we have. So, it's an issue, globally, but it's also an issue, locally, in our environment where kids are going to the park and there's broken glass, there's litter, there's things that are unsafe, and that impacts them and their daily life and their wellbeing. They don't feel safe at the park, or maybe it's triggering for them or, you know, maybe they hurt themselves at the park, and all those kind of inequalities actually come into that. 

I think about, in Scotland, we have this policy—national policy—they're trying to bring in and it's called the Deposit Return Scheme and, basically, I think a lot of countries are rolling them out. You take your glass bottles or your containers, you put them into the machine, it gives you 20 pence back. You obviously have to pay the 20p more, but it kind of promotes that recycling, and it was halted by the Scottish Government and they used to say, "What about poor people? They don't need that," and I'm sitting there thinking, "These guys, they need those schemes to be able to promote people to put their glasses in the bin, so kids don't have them in their environment," and so they were also, you know, making the planet healthier and the local environment, and it improves their wellbeing. 

And, in traffic, you know, more cars and our small community means more air pollution and air pollution is a global problem and it deeply impacts people from underprivileged backgrounds the most. So, then it doesn't stop there. But, if we have cars parked everywhere on the pavements and the streets, children can't play, so we're not just facing a war on the climate. It's a war on play – children playing in their own back gardens because of these cars. 

I guess you can see the bigger and the local together, and all of these cars out there, they can't exercise and so it affects their mental and physical well-being. Communities like Letham are deeply affected by health inequalities and it's exasperated when the plan isn't properly looked after, and our direct environment is affected when policies aren't put in place or policies aren't implemented to help them and their wellbeing. 

David 40:24

They're great examples of how global and local interact. You know, if you don't have good recycling and reuse programs, you have local pollution, not just using global resources at a scale that's not supportable, and if you don't address the over-reliance on private automobile, you not only have climate change; you have children stuck in apartments and homes, unable to play.

There's a thread here in what you've been talking about. In addition to tackling wellbeing, to tackling poverty, and at least alleviating some of the results of poverty. From your perspective, how important is it to tackle those poverty and wellbeing issues, the economic issues, the mental health issues, if we are going to be able to also tackle the causes of the climate crisis? 

Hollie Irvine 41:15 

Yeah, all so, so important. I think it's extremely important, as well, to tackle just all of the poverty, inequality, and climate change together collectively, at rapid pace, right now. And, you know, we all know that. There's no doing one without the other anymore. I think we've passed that point. We're at just 10% of our global population are responsible for about half of all of our CO2 emissions. When gas and electric bills go up, we're affected; people who live in poverty are affected. Where housing isn't fit for purpose, it's not insulated properly, properly, bills go up. When food prices go up, people who live in poverty can't afford to eat, or they can't afford their own food. And then, buying or investing in anything to help the climate impact, also, is expensive. 

Refills, vegan, cruelty-free, or solar panels are expensive, so not only it's negatively impacting, it's also difficult for us to join, to engage, and it's not to say that those who live in poverty or underprivileged backgrounds don't care or don't recycle. I mean, we've got billionaires flying to the moon, and I'm at home, cleaning out my macaroni tubs so that I can recycle them. It's so wild, the life contradictions. I think the big issue is that people who live in poverty, they feel powerless, and we need to bring them with us, and we can do so much more if we bring them with us and we can alleviate so much more together.

We can't assume that people don't care, or that they don't want to contribute. It's just that we maybe struggle to get the same opportunities as everybody else, and I guess that's where programs like cooperative energy schemes where communities can come together and share the energy profits or invest in their community, or community gardens where communities can come together and create food and give food out and distribute food within their community, both of these are great for local economies. They're great for wealth-building. They're great for the environment. They're also great for your mental health and your wellbeing, with your feelings of isolation in the community. And then, you start to unpick that narrative, that stigma piece that we were talking about earlier.

David 43:15

[gentle music] Everything you've talked about in Love Letham started with engaging people, even the youngest, empowering them to have a seat at the decision-making table, and sometimes there's criticism of climate advocates for talking about lower-income and working-class communities, but not really engaging with them or finding work, or including people's voices, actions, and opportunities for them in projects. Any thoughts about how climate movements should try to change, based on what you've seen in your work at Love Letham that's been successful? [music fades out] 

Hollie Irvine 43:55 

I wouldn't say it's just the climate sector. I would say almost every area of interest right now-- anti-poverty, we were really neglectful of, you know, working-class or underprivileged voices or any kind of different voice. And, for me, sometimes, when we go into things with an agenda or, you know, "This is what we think should happen," so the leaders of these movements have to also consider that they need to ask people, but they also have to be prepared to hear things that might not be on next year's project management sheet. I quite often will find myself being asked for lived experience, and someone will say to me, "But, that's wrong." [chuckles] It's not wrong. It's just different to what maybe the national conversation is.

I think just participation and asking people, and whether that's through-- we do surveys all the time so, you know, actually getting into communities and talking to them and asking them what they need and what they can do and what they want, and then co-creating those solutions with them. And, that's where the good stuff happens in that messy space where you know what you want to do, and people are going to come in and say something completely different. And, when you find that, you connect those dots and you find that nice secret sauce in the middle, that's where the good work happens in that chaos, right in the middle.

So, yeah, it's about leaders being open to listen, about people being invited to participate, being told, fed back that the participation matters. I'm all for a citizens' assembly, youth panels, children's panels, and bringing these issues to them because they will come up with brilliant stuff. And then, when it's the stuff that you've already got, it makes magic. 

David 45:23

You've made a lot of magic. So, what's next for Love Letham, and what's next for you on this journey of making magic? 

Hollie Irvine 45:30 

So, we're going to hopefully come up with some really nice, big pieces of policy over the next couple of months. We're going to get an action plan out to the community and just get as much of what the children want. And then, we're going to bring some of the long-term learning, so things like our environmental policy, our anti-poverty policy, and all of that policy, take that in to the council and start to rewire council and national government budgets so that we can do this right the first time, so that we are all not sitting having these same conversations in 20 years' time... hopefully... hopefully. 

David 46:03

Fingers crossed the lessons you've learned and spoken about so passionately today are going to spread globally. Hollie, have you thought about what a good and healthy life means for the children of Letham, for the neighbourhood, and maybe for you, too? 

Hollie Irvine 46:19 

[pensive music] I'm driving this point home again, but I'm a participation professional, so for me, I would say a healthy life is being able to participate, but I don't mean it's being able to participate as in fill out a form on a website and being told what your views are. I need to actually participate in life, in your community, with your neighbours in local activities, to go to a community garden, to go to school and college and make friends, to participate with your family and your caregivers, and to be given space to do that, and to participate in causes that you feel passionately about, whether that's traffic or whether that's litter, to be a child and to have the agency to be able to do that. I think about these children in this project a lot, how I would have loved something like this, growing up.

And, I think about the fact that we've asked these kids, and we're going to give them solutions, we're going to give them answers, and we're going to give that back to them, for the benefits that that will hold for them for the rest of their lives, having the confidence in the leadership to go, you know, "I said something that I wasn't happy about within my community." If people did something about it, then that's hope. That's aspiration. Then, when we start to breakdown those barriers of judgment, of stigma, and poor narrative areas, because we've got kids and people running about feeling empowered, they feel powerful, they feel that they can do anything, people that want to make a change because they know they can, people they want to go vote because they know they can.

It's about participation. It's about genuinely having barriers removed so that you can participate in life. I think that's what healthy life is for these kids and, for me specifically, I was blessed, growing up, that I  had people to help me remove those barriers, and I hope that we're doing the same, so they can grow up and reap the benefits and know that the world is our oyster, and they can do whatever they want to do and they can save the world. 

David 48:06

Hollie, I want to thank you for your time, for your ongoing work. 

Hollie Irvine 48:09 

Oh, thank you so much for asking me. [music fades out] 

David 48:12

[energetic, upbeat music] At first glance, the communities in Letham, Scotland, and Makers Valley, Johannesburg, seem to have little in common, but casting aside superficial differences, it's clear that they share common values and are building the foundations to create a good life for all, both now and into the future. Their urban environments are unique, so what is being built by, and for, the communities that live there is unique too. The health and wellbeing of the community is at the heart of the Makers Valley and Love Letham projects, both of which show us what it means in a practical way to create healthy neighbourhoods where all can thrive. [music ends] 

[Cities 1.5 main theme music] Next episode on Cities 1.5, I ask the experts why exactly housing is considered to be a climate issue, how it impacts our health and wellbeing, and what cities are doing to help fix this crisis. I speak with returning guest, Leilani Farha, Global Director of The Shift, and with Dr Elizabeth Hausler, the CEO of Build Change, all about housing as a human right. 

[Cities 1.5 main theme music] This has been Cities 1.5, leading global change through local climate action. I'm David Miller. I was the Mayor of Toronto, Canada, and I know, firsthand, the role cities can play in solving the climate crisis. Currently, I'm the Editor in Chief of the Journal of City Climate Policy and Economy, published by the University of Toronto Press in collaboration with the C40 Centre for City Climate Policy and Economy, where I'm also the Managing Director. C40's mission is to use the voices and the actions of its member mayors to help the world avoid climate breakdown.

[music continues] Cities 1.5 is produced by University of Toronto Press in association with the Journal of City Climate Policy and Economy and C40 Cities. This podcast is produced by Jessica Schmidt, and edited by Morgane Chambrin. Our executive producers are Peggy Whitfield and Calli Eliopoulos. Our music is by Lorna Gilfedder.

The fight for a healthier world is closer than you think. To learn more, visit the show's website, linked in the episode notes. See you next time. [main theme music continues then ends]